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Dot 5 cause a leak?
- mvent
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07 Nov 2011 22:42 #487497
by mvent
76 KZ900
76 XLCH
78 KZ1000
04 FLSTFI 120 ci
Dot 5 cause a leak? was created by mvent
Disassembled cleaned and reassembled front caliper, new pads, let all rubber parts soak in alcohol, new master, used Dot 5, holds pressure fine, but have a little "sweating" at caliper piston area, would Dot 5 cause this? Or just replace seal and cylinder with new if available?
Thanks
Mike
Thanks
Mike
76 KZ900
76 XLCH
78 KZ1000
04 FLSTFI 120 ci
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- ramtough_63
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07 Nov 2011 23:57 #487507
by ramtough_63
1978 KZ1000 A2
Thrown Together To Ride Til Winter
Facebook Page
Free Range Custom Art
1982/83 750R/GPZ
1984 Goldwing 1200 Interstate
1982 Yamahopper QT50
Previous
2 79 HD sporty XLH
02 HD FLSTS Heritage
60's HD Hummer
70's Honda 550 Four
70 Yamaha 100
and various enduros dirtbikes minibikes...
Replied by ramtough_63 on topic Dot 5 cause a leak?
my goldwing always does around the cap after switching to Dot 5 was having caliper hanging after several attempts at home remedies caliper doesnt stick but...now the master cylinder cap sweats/seeps.
1978 KZ1000 A2
Thrown Together To Ride Til Winter
Facebook Page
Free Range Custom Art
1982/83 750R/GPZ
1984 Goldwing 1200 Interstate
1982 Yamahopper QT50
Previous
2 79 HD sporty XLH
02 HD FLSTS Heritage
60's HD Hummer
70's Honda 550 Four
70 Yamaha 100
and various enduros dirtbikes minibikes...
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- MFolks
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08 Nov 2011 00:09 #487509
by MFolks
1982 GPZ1100 B2
General Dynamics/Convair 1983-1993
GLCM BGM-109 Tomahawk, AGM-129A Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM)
Replied by MFolks on topic Dot 5 cause a leak?
Brake Fluid Problems
"I like to go with DOT 5 fluid when I rebuild the brakes, just a better product"/quote]
Maybe not better, but certainly different. An alarm went off in my brain, so I Googled this up.
"More than you ever wanted to know about brake fluid....
Brake fluid facts
By Steve Wall
As a former materials engineering supervisor at a major automotive brake system supplier, I feel both qualified and obligated to inject some material science facts into the murky debate about DOT 5 verses DOT 3-4 brake fluids. The important technical issues governing the use of a particular specification brake fluid are as follows:
Fluid compatibility with the brake system rubber, plastic and metal components.
Water absorption and corrosion.
* Fluid boiling point and other physical.
* Brake system contamination and sludging.
Additionally, some technical comments will be made about the new brake fluid formulations appearing on the scene.
First of all, it's important to understand the chemical nature of brake fluid. DOT 3 brake fluids are mixtures of glycols and glycol ethers. DOT4 contains borate esters in addition to what is contained in DOT 3. These brake fluids are somewhat similar to automotive anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) and are not, as Dr. Curve implies, a petroleum fluid. DOT 5 is silicone chemistry .
Fluid Compatibility
Brake system materials must be compatible with the system fluid. Compatibility is determined by chemistry, and no amount of advertising, wishful thinking or rationalizing can change the science of chemical compatibility. Both DOT 3-4 and DOT 5 fluids are compatible with most brake system materials except in the case some silicone rubber external components, such as caliper piston boots, which are attacked by silicon fluids and greases.
Water absorption and corrosion
The big bugaboo with DOT 3-4 fluids always cited by silicone fluid advocates is water absorption. DOT 3-4 glycol based fluids, just like ethylene glycol antifreezes, are readily miscible with water. Long term brake system water content tends to reach a maximum of about 3%, which is readily handled by the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid formulation. Since the inhibitors are gradually depleted as. Since the inhibitors are gradually depleted as they do their job, glycol brake fluid, just like anti-freeze, needs to be changed periodically. DOT 5 fluids, not being water miscible, must rely on the silicone (with some corrosion inhibitors) as a barrier film to control corrosion. Water is not absorbed by silicone as in the case of DOT 3-4 fluids, and will remain as a separate globule sinking to the lowest point in the brake system, since it is more dense.
Fluid boiling point
DOT 4 glycol based fluid has a higher boiling point ( 446°F) than DOT 3 ( 446 ºF), and both fluids will exhibit a reduced boiling point as water content increases. DOT 5 in its pure state offers a higher boiling point (500°F) however if water got into the system, and a big globule found its way into a caliper, the water would side at temperatures very much below freezing, let alone at 40° below zero, silicone's low temperature advantage won't be apparent. Neither fluids will reduce stopping distances.
With the advent of ABS systems, the limitations of existing brake fluids have been recognized and the brake fluid manufacturers have been working on formulations with enhanced properties. However, the chosen direction has not been silicone. The only major user of silicone is the US Army. It has recently asked the SAE about a procedure for converting from silicon back to DOT 3-4. If they ever decide to switch, silicone brake fluid will go the way of leaded gas.
Brake system contamination
The single most common brake system failure caused by a contaminant is swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due to the introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power steering fluid, mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major damage. Flushing with mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system failure in a short time. I suspect this is what has happened when some car owners changed to DOT 5 (and then assumed that silicone caused the problem). Flushing with alcohol also causes problems. Older brake systems should be flushed only with DOT 3 or 4.
If silicone is introduced into an older brake system, the silicone will latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component deterioration and create a gelatin like goop which will attract more crud and eventually plug up metering orifices or cause pistons to stick. If you have already changed to DOT 5, don't compound your initial mistake and change back. Silicone is very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of your system. Just change the fluid regularly. For those who race using silicone fluid, I recommend that you crack the bleed screws before each racing session to insure that there is no water in the calipers.
New developments
Since DOT 4 fluids were developed, it was recognized that borate ester based fluids offered the potential for boiling points beyond the 446°F requirement, thus came the Super DOT 4 fluids - some covered by the DOT 5.1 designation -which exhibit a minimum dry boiling point of 500°F (same as silicone, but different chemistry).
Additionally, a new fluid type based on silicon ester chemistry (not the same as silicon) has been developed that exhibits a minimum dry boiling point of 590°F. It is miscible with DOT 3-4 fluds but has yet to see commercial usage." I learned in the past thru others mistakes not to switch to DOT 5 in systems designed for DOT 3 or 4.
"I like to go with DOT 5 fluid when I rebuild the brakes, just a better product"/quote]
Maybe not better, but certainly different. An alarm went off in my brain, so I Googled this up.
"More than you ever wanted to know about brake fluid....
Brake fluid facts
By Steve Wall
As a former materials engineering supervisor at a major automotive brake system supplier, I feel both qualified and obligated to inject some material science facts into the murky debate about DOT 5 verses DOT 3-4 brake fluids. The important technical issues governing the use of a particular specification brake fluid are as follows:
Fluid compatibility with the brake system rubber, plastic and metal components.
Water absorption and corrosion.
* Fluid boiling point and other physical.
* Brake system contamination and sludging.
Additionally, some technical comments will be made about the new brake fluid formulations appearing on the scene.
First of all, it's important to understand the chemical nature of brake fluid. DOT 3 brake fluids are mixtures of glycols and glycol ethers. DOT4 contains borate esters in addition to what is contained in DOT 3. These brake fluids are somewhat similar to automotive anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) and are not, as Dr. Curve implies, a petroleum fluid. DOT 5 is silicone chemistry .
Fluid Compatibility
Brake system materials must be compatible with the system fluid. Compatibility is determined by chemistry, and no amount of advertising, wishful thinking or rationalizing can change the science of chemical compatibility. Both DOT 3-4 and DOT 5 fluids are compatible with most brake system materials except in the case some silicone rubber external components, such as caliper piston boots, which are attacked by silicon fluids and greases.
Water absorption and corrosion
The big bugaboo with DOT 3-4 fluids always cited by silicone fluid advocates is water absorption. DOT 3-4 glycol based fluids, just like ethylene glycol antifreezes, are readily miscible with water. Long term brake system water content tends to reach a maximum of about 3%, which is readily handled by the corrosion inhibitors in the brake fluid formulation. Since the inhibitors are gradually depleted as. Since the inhibitors are gradually depleted as they do their job, glycol brake fluid, just like anti-freeze, needs to be changed periodically. DOT 5 fluids, not being water miscible, must rely on the silicone (with some corrosion inhibitors) as a barrier film to control corrosion. Water is not absorbed by silicone as in the case of DOT 3-4 fluids, and will remain as a separate globule sinking to the lowest point in the brake system, since it is more dense.
Fluid boiling point
DOT 4 glycol based fluid has a higher boiling point ( 446°F) than DOT 3 ( 446 ºF), and both fluids will exhibit a reduced boiling point as water content increases. DOT 5 in its pure state offers a higher boiling point (500°F) however if water got into the system, and a big globule found its way into a caliper, the water would side at temperatures very much below freezing, let alone at 40° below zero, silicone's low temperature advantage won't be apparent. Neither fluids will reduce stopping distances.
With the advent of ABS systems, the limitations of existing brake fluids have been recognized and the brake fluid manufacturers have been working on formulations with enhanced properties. However, the chosen direction has not been silicone. The only major user of silicone is the US Army. It has recently asked the SAE about a procedure for converting from silicon back to DOT 3-4. If they ever decide to switch, silicone brake fluid will go the way of leaded gas.
Brake system contamination
The single most common brake system failure caused by a contaminant is swelling of the rubber components (piston seals etc.) due to the introduction of petroleum based products (motor oil, power steering fluid, mineral oil etc.) A small amount is enough to do major damage. Flushing with mineral spirits is enough to cause a complete system failure in a short time. I suspect this is what has happened when some car owners changed to DOT 5 (and then assumed that silicone caused the problem). Flushing with alcohol also causes problems. Older brake systems should be flushed only with DOT 3 or 4.
If silicone is introduced into an older brake system, the silicone will latch unto the sludge generated by gradual component deterioration and create a gelatin like goop which will attract more crud and eventually plug up metering orifices or cause pistons to stick. If you have already changed to DOT 5, don't compound your initial mistake and change back. Silicone is very tenacious stuff and you will never get it all out of your system. Just change the fluid regularly. For those who race using silicone fluid, I recommend that you crack the bleed screws before each racing session to insure that there is no water in the calipers.
New developments
Since DOT 4 fluids were developed, it was recognized that borate ester based fluids offered the potential for boiling points beyond the 446°F requirement, thus came the Super DOT 4 fluids - some covered by the DOT 5.1 designation -which exhibit a minimum dry boiling point of 500°F (same as silicone, but different chemistry).
Additionally, a new fluid type based on silicon ester chemistry (not the same as silicon) has been developed that exhibits a minimum dry boiling point of 590°F. It is miscible with DOT 3-4 fluds but has yet to see commercial usage." I learned in the past thru others mistakes not to switch to DOT 5 in systems designed for DOT 3 or 4.
1982 GPZ1100 B2
General Dynamics/Convair 1983-1993
GLCM BGM-109 Tomahawk, AGM-129A Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM)
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- rstnick
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08 Nov 2011 01:11 - 08 Nov 2011 01:14 #487530
by rstnick
Rob
CANADA
Need a key for your Kawasaki? PM me
1978 KZ650 C2, 130K kms, Delkevic ex, EI, CVK32, PMC easy clutch, ATK fork brace, steering damper, Progressive Suspension, braced swingarm, ZRX shocks, 18" Z1R front wheel.
2000 ZRX1100
2011 Ninja 250R
2005 z750s
Replied by rstnick on topic Dot 5 cause a leak?
I've used Dot 5 fluid for over 20 years in my kz and have had no sweating problems, or leaking.
Even sat for 10 years and the brakes were not siezed and still worked. Did put in new fluid, Dot 5.
At the time when it was first put in, new SS lines were put on and the MC and calipers rebuilt.
Only switched the rear systems fluid to Dot 4 (after a thorough cleaning) because I had installed a GSXR MC a few years back.
Even sat for 10 years and the brakes were not siezed and still worked. Did put in new fluid, Dot 5.
At the time when it was first put in, new SS lines were put on and the MC and calipers rebuilt.
Only switched the rear systems fluid to Dot 4 (after a thorough cleaning) because I had installed a GSXR MC a few years back.
Rob
CANADA
Need a key for your Kawasaki? PM me
1978 KZ650 C2, 130K kms, Delkevic ex, EI, CVK32, PMC easy clutch, ATK fork brace, steering damper, Progressive Suspension, braced swingarm, ZRX shocks, 18" Z1R front wheel.
2000 ZRX1100
2011 Ninja 250R
2005 z750s
Last edit: 08 Nov 2011 01:14 by rstnick.
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- RonKZ650
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08 Nov 2011 01:20 #487536
by RonKZ650
321,000 miles on KZ's that I can remember. Not going to see any more.
Replied by RonKZ650 on topic Dot 5 cause a leak?
I'll go one better, put Dot5 in all my KZs when I first heard of it which was around 1985? Haven't even changed fluid in any of them since that time and never had a leak yet.
321,000 miles on KZ's that I can remember. Not going to see any more.
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- Motor Head
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- FIX UP YOUR BIKE RIGHT AND CHEAP
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08 Nov 2011 01:23 #487537
by Motor Head
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
Replied by Motor Head on topic Dot 5 cause a leak?
Always use new rebuild kits when reassembling your brake cylinders, the trash can won't care if you clean those 20-30 year old rubber seals. :laugh:
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
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- mvent
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08 Nov 2011 12:46 #487596
by mvent
Thanks
Mike
76 KZ900
76 XLCH
78 KZ1000
04 FLSTFI 120 ci
Replied by mvent on topic Dot 5 cause a leak?
You are right, where can QUALITY seals be purchased? I'm assuming they are no longer available from Kawasaki, it's for a 78 A2AMotor Head wrote: Always use new rebuild kits when reassembling your brake cylinders, the trash can won't care if you clean those 20-30 year old rubber seals. :laugh:
Thanks
Mike
76 KZ900
76 XLCH
78 KZ1000
04 FLSTFI 120 ci
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- Motor Head
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- FIX UP YOUR BIKE RIGHT AND CHEAP
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08 Nov 2011 12:49 #487598
by Motor Head
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
Replied by Motor Head on topic Dot 5 cause a leak?
Have you tried Z1enterprises? Ask and you will receive at their place.
1982 KZ1000LTD K2 Vance & Hines 4-1 ACCEL COILS Added Vetter fairing & Bags. FOX Racing rear Shocks, Braced Swing-arm, Fork Brace, Progressive Fork Springs RT Gold Emulators, APE Valve Springs, 1166 Big Bore kit, RS34's, GPZ cams.
1980 KZ550LTD C1 Stock SOLD Miss it
1979 MAZDA RX7 in the works, 13B...
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- mvent
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08 Nov 2011 12:59 #487601
by mvent
76 KZ900
76 XLCH
78 KZ1000
04 FLSTFI 120 ci
Replied by mvent on topic Dot 5 cause a leak?
Thanks, quite familiar with them, after redoing this bike, saw them on their site,wasn't sure of the quality.
76 KZ900
76 XLCH
78 KZ1000
04 FLSTFI 120 ci
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